Curse

Chthon · Sep 25, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

This post is a followup to my earlier compilations of MM self-heal options, which can be found here and here. The need for an update was primarily brought about the the new skill Masochism, which improves the energy efficiency of a lot of builds that previously just didn't fly. Some of the numbers here vary from my earlier posts. In most cases that is due to using more precise figures this time; most notably 6.1 in place of 6 for the optimal recast rate for BotM. In a few cases I previously misidentified the limiting factor. Those errors have been corrected this time around.

PvP or PvE?
PvE. The only PvP format where MM's are viable is AB. And there you pretty much need to play one particular N/D build to stand any chance of surviving opponents who are (usually) smart enough to prioritize killing you above all else. PvE is the only situation where you have much of a choice. This is about PvE.

Why must a MM have a self-heal in the first place?
If you have to ask, you probably shouldn't be playing a MM build in the first place... However, for the sake of those who can be taught, here's a brief summary of the reasons why: An unavoidable part of being an MM is sacrificing 25% of your health every 6 sec or so. Forcing your monks to handle that is (1) rude, if they happen to be a live person, and (2) dangerous because it diverts a lot of their energy and cast time from dealing with monster damage to babysitting you. Thus, you need to self-heal your sacrifice costs. Moreover, the above presumes the best case scenario that your monk is alive, hasn't rage-quit, isn't afk, isn't out of energy, and isn't just plain stupid. All of which are true from time to time. You really can't afford to turn into useless deadweight because your monk has poor e-management or insists on believing that life sheath or prot spirit works on your life sacrifices. Thus, you need a self-heal so that you can keep your army running regardless of how good or bad your monk is.

What makes a good self heal?
I'm looking at two major criteria here. They tend to force the conclusion to the point that discussing other criteria is not necessary here. The two major criteria are:
(1) Unconditionality.
A self-heal that relies on a condition beyond your control is no good. You simply cannot afford to have your army die because you couldn't get a foe under 50% hp on schedule, or none of your foes was enchanted, or there were no corpses to eat while moving between battles, or whatever. Some conditional heals make excellent secondary healing options, if you want to dedicate a second skills to that purpose. But all of them fail a priori as primary self-healing options.
(2) Maximum Supportable Max Health.
How high can you get your max health and still afford to heal back 25% of it every 6 sec or so, given your self-heal's e-cost, cast time, recharge time, mechanics, and amount healed?

Maximum supportable max health is a function of healing/time: Start with the presumption that you have at least 1 minion at max degen. Max degen is -20hp/sec. BotM heals for 122 at 16DM. 122hp/cast / 20/hp/sec = 6.1sec/cast. Presuming you are maintaining the 10 minion max, the sac for BotM is 25% max hp. Divide by 6.1 equals ~4.1%max_hp/sec. The more healing/time you get from your self-heal skill, the higher max hp you can afford to support.

Healing/time is in turn a function of healing/cast and cast/time. Healing/cast is apparent from skill descriptions. Cast/time is going to be capped by the lowest of the three following limitations:

Cast time. A self-heal does you little good if it eats up so much of your cast time that there's no time left to summon or do other things. Assuming you cast BotM once every 6.1 sec, and one summon (with bloodstained insignia) every 6.1 sec (that's questionable, but I don't have a better figure), and then add in aftercast delays, and you're looking at 4.75 out of every 6.1 sec, or ~78% of your time, dedicated to BotM and summoning. To fit into that remaining ~22%, a skill with a 1sec cast cannot be cast more often than once every ~7.9sec, and a skill with a 2sec cast time cannot be cast more often than once every 12.4sec. If you add Masochism into the mix once every 30 sec, these numbers become ~10.7 for 1 sec casts and ~16.9 for 2sec casts. (Exact figures can be found at the end of this post.)
Recycle time. (Obviously) You cannot cast a skill more frequently than it's activation time plus its recharge time.
Energy cost. You cannot cast a skill more frequently than you have the energy to afford to do so. In the worst-case situation (either moving between battles or fighting a battle where you are struggling to make a kill), your energy income is going to be limited to 4 pips, or 4/3 e/sec. BotM is going to eat 5/6.1 e/sec, leaving you with 0.513661202 e/sec to pay for your self-heal. Here's where Masochism works the biggest change: Assuming a SR rank that returns 3 energy per sac, using masochism leaves you with a much more robust 0.838797814 e/sec to finance your self-healing. (Though, ultimately, you might prefer to go with a lower max life and put some of that energy towards more damage, you have the option of spending all of it on self-healing.)

Some assumptions about attribute points and such.
For the purposes of these numbers, I'm going to be making some assumptions. Some are stated above (ie 10 minions, at least 1 minion at max degen, BotM as your minion heal, etc.). To try to make the rest clear: I'm assuming 16 Death, 10+1 or 10+2 SR (exact value doesn't matter here), and 8 in your self-healing attribute (9 if it's a necromancer attribute). I'm assuming no special items other than a bloodstained insignia. If I add in special equipment, I'll make an express note of it.

Self-Healing Skills:

Aura of the Lich
[skill]Aura of the Lich[/skill]
Unconditional: Yes.
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/ or w/out Maso:1122.4 (pre-AotL) (limited by recycle time)
Notes: You must recast it on recharge to achieve this effect. (The heal effect occurs regardless of whether you recast, so you get the most healing by recasting whenever possible.) A 20% enchant mod has no effect whatsoever (except to delay the first heal you receive).

Heal Area/Karei's Healing Circle
[skill]Heal Area[/skill]/[skill]Karei's Healing Circle[/skill]
Unconditional: Yes.
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/ Maso:
When healing self + minions: 628.3 (limited by energy) (accomplished by using BotM once every 13.9534884 sec and Heal Area once every 9.77198697 sec.)
When healing self only: 225.1 (limited by energy)
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/out Maso:
When healing self + minions: 517.0 (limited by energy) (accomplish by using BotM once every 12.5625 sec and Heal Area once every 10.6914894 sec.)
When healing self only: 137.9 (limited by energy)
Notes: Heal Area only works so well because it can also heal minions, thereby reducing the energy and life sac you have to spend via BotM.
However, once a fight starts and the minions leave Heal Area's range, a secondary self-heal is absolutely necessary. Conditional heals are OK for a secondary, in-battle self-heal. (Vampiric horrors are highly recommended.)
In order to achieve the maximums for healing self + minions, you'd need to use, by definition, the least efficient distribution of your energy between BotM and HA possible (that still keeps the minions alive). As a practical matter, you would be much better off going with a lower max health, casting BotM more, casting HA less, and using the energy you'd save for other things.
My prior post were erroneous. I baselessly assumed that HA and BotM must be cast in a 1-to-1 ratio, and permitted that ratio to limit casting rates, rather than energy, recycle, or cast time. (Energy is the proper limiting factor in this case.)
Derivation: Since these figures were somewhat difficult to produce (and I mucked them up the first time), I've decided to give the derivation of the self+minions, no maso case for those who'd like to reproduce/ammend my figures at the bottom of the page.

Mystic Regeneration
[skill]Mystic Regeneration[/skill]
Unconditional: Yes.* Relies on your ability to keep other enchantments active, but that's (generally) trivial.
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/ Maso:
No Extra Enchantments: 292.9 (limited by speed of regen)
One Extra Enchantment: 439.2 (limited by speed of regen) (Assumes either Infuse Condition or Dark Bond (@ 3 blood) for the third enchantment.)
Two Extra Enchantments: 488 (limited by speed of regen) (Assumes Infuse Condition or Dark Bond (@ 3 blood) for the third and fourth enchantments.)
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/out Maso:
(Assumes Mystic Regen + Dark Bond + Infuse Condition.)
W/ 20% enchant mod: 349.7* (limited by energy) (see note below)
W/out 20% enchant mod: 259.5* (limited by energy) (see note below)
Notes: Using Masochism, a 20% enchant mod will not increase the max life you can support, but it will increase the amount of spare energy you'll have around.
The non-masochism figures assume that Mystic Regen is the skill that doesn't get recast on the recharge to stay within 4/3 e/sec. I believe that cheaper cost/sec of the other enchants and the fact that they too are needed for max regen makes this the optimal choice. However, if I was ever able to prove that, I've forgotten how. These figures might need revising if someone can disprove that assumption.
The usefulness of Dark Bond, Infuse Condition, or any other cheap, long-lasting substitute enchantments in the PvE environment is questionable. They make the build work, but at the cost of skill slots that could be dedicated to more useful skills.
Using Aura of the Lich in addition to Mystic Regen (and a third enchantment) is a popular build (probably due to its usefulness in AB), but it is, in fact, less energy efficient than simply devoting more energy to recasting AotL more frequently. Mystic Regen adds nothing unless you're already recasting AotL on the recharge.

Spirit Light
[skill]Spirit Light[/skill]
Unconditional: Yes.* Though you need a spirit for optimal results.
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/ Maso: 382.6 (limited by cast time)
(If we disregard the cast time limit (b/c it's based on my arbitrary estimate summon frequency), we'd get 415.8* (limited by energy) and no time to cast summons.)
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/out Maso: 219.1* (limited by energy)
Notes: Assumes either Pain or Bloodsong recast every 33 sec. Using a more expensive spirit like vampirism lowers the maso value to 324.2 (limited by energy).

Blood Renewal
[skill]Blood Renewal[/skill]
Unconditional: Yes.
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/ or w/out Maso: 328.2 (limited by recycle time)
(Adding a 20% enchant mod increases it to 337.0.)
Notes: Not the super-fantastic self-heal it's made out to be. Multiple 25% sacs in succession can get dangerous.

Leader's Comfort
[skill]Leader's Comfort[/skill]
Unconditional: Yes.* (The condition is trivial since having the minions you need to heal meets it.)
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/out Maso: 274.9 (limited by cast time)
(If we just toss the cast time limitation (since I arbitrarily pegged that figure) we get 342, limited by recycle time.)
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/ Maso: 202.4 (limited by cast time)
(342 (limited by recycle time) if we ignore the cast time limit.)
Notes: Unpopular, despite mathematical superiority to some other popular options.

Generous Was Tsungrai
[skill]Generous Was Tsungrai[/skill]
Unconditional: Yes.
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/ or w/out Maso: 259.3 (limited by recycle time)
Notes: Also it sticks you with an ashpot that yo-yo's your energy, toggles your staff mods on and off, and mucks up your minion control by preventing you from wanding. Ridiculously overrated.

Healing Breeze
[skill]Healing Breeze[/skill]
Unconditional: Yes.
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/ Maso: 245.6 (limited by energy)
(286.5 if you shirked points out of SR to get to 9 healing.)
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/out Maso: 150.4 (limited by energy)
(175.5 at 9 healing.)
Notes: Even if energy weren't a problem, it would be capped at 292.8, b/c that's as fast as 6 regen can go.
This entry in my prior posts was erroneous. I assumed the speed of regen was the limiting factor without noticing that energy actually capped it lower.
[EDIT: Healing Breeze was changed so that it lasts for 15 sec and gives 7 regen at rank 8. New figures are:
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/ Maso: 341.6 (limited by the speed of regen)
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/out Maso: 263.2 (limited by energy)
(315.84 (limite dby energy) with a 20% enchant mod.)
Notes: Not really so bad now. Maybe even borderline viable.]

Spirit Transfer
[skill]Spirit Transfer[/skill]
Unconditional: Yes.* If you bring the spirit yourself and keep it alive...
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/ Maso: 243.1 (limited by energy)
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/out Maso: 128.1 (limited by energy)
Notes: Assumes either Pain or Bloodsong recast every 33 sec. Results are worse with more expensive spirits, shorter-lasting spirits, and actually moving.

Mend Body and Soul
[skill]Mend Body and Soul[/skill]
Unconditional: Yes.
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/ Maso: 219.1 (limited by cast time)
(If we disregard the cast time limit, then 238.2 (limited by energy) and no time to cast summons).
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/out Maso: 125.5
Notes: Surprisingly bad.

Healing Signet
[skill]Healing Signet[/skill]
Unconditional: Yes.
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/out Maso: 196.4 (limited by cast time)
(If we ignore the cast time limitation, you could say 406.7 (limited by recycle), leaving yourself virtually no time to summon.)
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/ Maso: 144.6 (limited by cast time)
(Again, 406.7 if we ignore cast time.)
Notes: Though no one seems to use this, using dual fast-cast gear to save cast time on BotM and summons might make it viable...

Ghostmirror Light
[skill]Ghostmirror Light[/skill]
Unconditional: Yes.* Well, you need to have at least 1 living other ally and keep a spirit around.
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/ Maso: 169.7 (limited by cast time)
(If we disregard the cast time limit, then 184.5 (limited by energy).)
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/out Maso: 97.2 (limited by energy)
Notes: Really, really sucks. Assumes either Pain or Bloodsong recast every 33 sec. Results are worse with more expensive spirits, shorter-lasting spirits, and actually moving. Included in the list only because some moron on GWonline suggested it seriously as a MM self-heal.

Orison of Healing
[skill]Orison of Healing[/skill]
Unconditional: Yes.
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/ Maso: 145.0 (limited by cast time)
(If we disregard the cast time limit, then 192.4 (limited by energy).)
Maximum Supportable Max HP w/out Maso: 117.8 (limited by energy)
Notes: Sucks.

Signet of Lost Souls
[skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill]
Unconditional: No. Fails as primary heal.
Notes: Nice secondary heal, e-management

Taste of Pain
[skill]Taste of Pain[/skill]
Unconditional: No. Fails as primary heal.
Notes: Nice secondary heal.

Consume Corpse
[skill]Consume Corpse[/skill]
Unconditional: No. Fails as primary heal.
Notes: Nice secondary heal, e-management. Teleport effect is less suicidal than one would expect. (In fact, it can be used to tele-kite sometimes.)

Soul Feast
[skill]Soul Feast[/skill]
Unconditional: No. Fails as primary heal.
Notes: Probably inferior to Consume Corpse for MM secondary heal purposes.

Taste of Death
[skill]Taste of Death[/skill]
Unconditional: No. Fails as primary heal.
Notes: Useful as an emergency heal.
Arcane Echo + Flesh Golem + Taste of Death is simply retarded. Don't get me started...

Unholy Feast
[skill]Unholy Feast[/skill]
Unconditional: No. Fails as primary heal.
Notes: Proximity to monsters is unwise for MM in any case.

Dark Bond
[skill]Dark Bond[/skill]
Notes: NOT a heal. Does NOTHING to offset life sac.

Conclusions:
Before Masochism came along, AotL and Heal Area were the only self-heals that could support a life total I consider safe to run (>= 400ish). With Masochism added, Mystic Regen now also supports a decent life total, if you can come up with a third enchantment that's worth using.
And that's about all there is to it. The rest don't merit serious consideration. (Though I give non-serious consideration to Spirit Light, Leader's Comfort, and Heal Sig.

)

From here, there's some room to debate which of these three skills is the “best” choice. To breifly sketch the largest pros/cons: AotL gives the best healing, by far, for the least energy, by far, but it uses up your elite slot and puts you in danger from life steal and degen and makes you look very appetizing to monsters. Heal Area does the best job of moving minions between battles, allows you to move faster, and can serve as an emergency backline heal, but it requires a secondary heal for battle and runs the tightest against your energy limits. Mystic Regen (plus Maso) allows a decent life total and foolproof e-management (Renewing your enchants as they expire never runs you over your energy allotment.) but it requires you to put a least one extra skillslot to sub-optimal use for an extra enchantment and opens you up to enchant stripping more than the other two. Ultimately, each option probably works better than the others in certain builds and worse in other builds.

Future Amendments:
I'm pretty tired of crunching numbers on this, so it's highly unlikely that I'll change or add anything on my own initiative. At least not any time soon... However, if you find an error or omission, please bring it to my attention. I'd especially like to hear a convincing proof/disproof for the optimal way to run non-maso mystic regen. If you think you've got an unlisted self-healing option that's seriously worth mentioning, do the math yourself, then please bring it to my attention. I'll check the math and make an addendum if I agree it deserves mention. However, if anyone suggests Arcane Echo + Flesh Golem + Taste of Death, I will shoot them.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some useful constants, if you're going to expand upon this math:
1 sec cast limit w/out maso: 7.90740741 sec
2 sec cast limit w/out maso: 12.4259259 sec

1 sec cast limit w/ maso: 10.7376362 sec
2 sec cast limit w/ maso: 16.8734283 sec

available e/sec w/out maso: 0.513661202 e
time needed for 5e w/out maso: 9.73404256 sec
time needed for 10e w/out maso: 19.4680851 sec

available e/sec w/ maso: 0.838797814 e
time needed for 5e w/ maso: 5.96091205 sec
time needed for 10e w/ maso: 11.9218241 sec

heal/sec --> max_hp multipler: 24.4

Derivation of no maso, healing self + minions case for Heal Area:
To find the casting rates for BotM and HA, start with the premise that the highest max hp will come from casting HA as frequently as possible and BotM as infrequently as possible. This is limited by the need to get >= 20minion_heal/sec. And we know that BotM provides more minion_heal/e than HA, so the point of lowest acceptable minion_heal/sec is going to correspond to the point lowest acceptable minion_heal/e (and later the point of lowest acceptable BotM frequency/highest acceptable HA frequency). So, convert that to 15minion_heal/e. Now, 15minion_heal/e = (%_e_dedicated to_HA * 110minion_heal/10e) + ((1- %_e_dedicated to_HA) * 122minion_heal/5e). Solve. Multiply by 4/3 to get e_per_sec_dedicated_to_HA. Divide the 10e casting cost by that value to get the cast rate for HA. Repeat for BotM. Double check that recycle time and cast time don't impose a lower limit. (They don't.) Verify arithmetic by double checking that casting at rates uses exactly 4/3e/sec and yields exactly 20minion_heal/sec. Now go compute max health using (1/4 * Max_HP) / BotM_rate = 110self_heal / HA_rate.

Chthon · Sep 25, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Since the skill tags seem not to work in a long post, I'm posting them in this short one:
[skill]Aura of the Lich[/skill]
[skill]Heal Area[/skill]/[skill]Karei's Healing Circle[/skill]
[skill]Mystic Regeneration[/skill]
[skill]Spirit Light[/skill]
[skill]Blood Renewal[/skill]
[skill]Leader's Comfort[/skill]
[skill]Generous Was Tsungrai[/skill]
[skill]Healing Breeze[/skill]
[skill]Spirit Transfer[/skill]
[skill]Mend Body and Soul[/skill]
[skill]Healing Signet[/skill]
[skill]Ghostmirror Light[/skill]
[skill]Orison of Healing[/skill]
[skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill]
[skill]Taste of Pain[/skill]
[skill]Consume Corpse[/skill]
[skill]Soul Feast[/skill]
[skill]Taste of Death[/skill]
[skill]Unholy Feast[/skill]
[skill]Dark Bond[/skill]

Moloch Vein · Sep 25, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Removed, rethought.

Carinae · Sep 26, 2007, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Nice post. You understand the dynamics of HA and other self heals very well. That's refreshing. But there are a few assumption you make that aren't true and lifting them actually makes the choice of HA perform even better:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Forcing your monks to handle that is (1) rude, if they happen to be a live person, and (2) dangerous because it diverts a lot of their energy and cast time from dealing with monster damage to babysitting you.

Yes and No. Monks heal much better than you do. Let them do it until there are clouds on the horizon. Your self heal only needs to be used when the whole party is taking damage or pressure degen. In those cases you need to minimize your burden on monk. But if you are virtually the only one he needs to heal, let him do it. He can do it very very efficiently, indefinately, for free with the right skills. This frees up more energy for you to animate and spam BotM, which in turn makes your army stronger and ultimately saves energy for the monk.

But if aggro breaks, you start taking AoE, mass degen, he gets pissed off, he falls asleep/phone call/lag/dies....whatever, then your self heal becomes vital to the whole party. It's golden. You need to be able to play solo, but only engage solo-mode when you must.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

However, once a fight starts and the minions leave Heal Area's range, a secondary self-heal is absolutely necessary.

No it isn't. See above. When in battle, you're only using HA when you must. If it heals minion(s) in that case, fine. If it heals an enemy and it can't be helped, fine. Staying alive is paramount. BotM is your primary minion healer and your only minion-battle heal. However, it does make a nice backline heal, especially vs pressure degen.

It's after the battle that HA shines. You can burst heal your minions and party while at the same time allowing your monks to recover faster for the next mob. That, in turn, lets you transport them across the map faster, which means the minions are suffering less degen.

Burst minion heal =-> faster transport =-> less degen =-> saves energy

The reason to use HA lies in its overall utility. Taken all together it blows the doors off any other choice.

WildmouseX · Sep 26, 2007, 12:56 AM // 00:56

you missed a very obvious, and very usefull one....

[skill]Animate Vampiric Horror[/skill]

vamp horrors return as much health as they do damage.....i use a OoU build, so not only do i sac 25% from BoTM, i also lose 7 health everytime any of my minnions connect with a hit....

the added damage from OoU boosts the health return of the vamps over 25 everytime they conect... keeping just 4 of them in an army is enough cover all of the sacrificeing and then some... i solo with BoTM,Vamp horors, bone horrors, & OoU - and can keep my health bar full once i have built up the intial group

Chthon · Sep 26, 2007, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildmouseX

you missed a very obvious, and very usefull one....

[skill]Animate Vampiric Horror[/skill]

vamp horrors return as much health as they do damage.....i use a OoU build, so not only do i sac 25% from BoTM, i also lose 7 health everytime any of my minnions connect with a hit....

the added damage from OoU boosts the health return of the vamps over 25 everytime they conect... keeping just 4 of them in an army is enough cover all of the sacrificeing and then some... i solo with BoTM,Vamp horors, bone horrors, & OoU - and can keep my health bar full once i have built up the intial group

Conditional. They need a foe to hit. They are however my favorite secondary heal, and I use them in almost any build I can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Yes and No. Monks heal much better than you do. Let them do it until there are clouds on the horizon. Your self heal only needs to be used when the whole party is taking damage or pressure degen. In those cases you need to minimize your burden on monk. But if you are virtually the only one he needs to heal, let him do it. He can do it very very efficiently, indefinately, for free with the right skills. This frees up more energy for you to animate and spam BotM, which in turn makes your army stronger and ultimately saves energy for the monk.

But if aggro breaks, you start taking AoE, mass degen, he gets pissed off, he falls asleep/phone call/lag/dies....whatever, then your self heal becomes vital to the whole party. It's golden. You need to be able to play solo, but only engage solo-mode when you must.

I don't disagree. If the monk can afford to heal you, without detracting from his duties for the rest of the team, then by all means let him. But still build around the assumption that he won't. I think this phase is just about perfect:

Quote:

You need to be able to play solo, but only engage solo-mode when you must.

Quote:

No [a secondary heal] isn't [necessary with HA]. See above. When in battle, you're only using HA when you must. If it heals minion(s) in that case, fine. If it heals an enemy and it can't be helped, fine. Staying alive is paramount. BotM is your primary minion healer and your only minion-battle heal. However, it does make a nice backline heal, especially vs pressure degen.

If the monk dies, or burns through his energy healing a wammo, or whatever, and stops being able to heal you, that's the time to start using HA. But HA alone won't get the job done without the minions close enough to get healed by it.
You need something else to get you enough life in that situation to offset your sacs. Hence the need for a secondary heal.

Wildmouse already pointed out my favorite. Vamp horrors, particularly with OoU, usually heal so much that I almost never have to use HA during battle.

Quote:

It's after the battle that HA shines. You can burst heal your minions and party while at the same time allowing your monks to recover faster for the next mob. That, in turn, lets you transport them across the map faster, which means the minions are suffering less degen.

Burst minion heal =-> faster transport =-> less degen =-> saves energy

I agree. I thought I alluded to HA making for speedier movement. I guess I failed.

Quote:

The reason to use HA lies in its overall utility. Taken all together it blows the doors off any other choice.

I'm not sure if I'd go that far, but it is my default choice when designing a MM build.

Coloneh · Sep 26, 2007, 02:49 AM // 02:49

nice, but i would like to see the math on Masochism + mystic regen + AotL.... Ive been running AotL and mystic sense NF came out.

Vilaptca · Sep 26, 2007, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

An unavoidable part of being an MM is sacrificing 25% of your health every 6 sec or so. Forcing your monks to handle that is (1) rude, if they happen to be a live person, and (2) dangerous because it diverts a lot of their energy and cast time from dealing with monster damage to babysitting you. Thus, you need to self-heal your sacrifice costs. Moreover, the above presumes the best case scenario that your monk is alive, hasn't rage-quit, isn't afk, isn't out of energy, and isn't just plain stupid. All of which are true from time to time. You really can't afford to turn into useless deadweight because your monk has poor e-management or insists on believing that life sheath or prot spirit works on your life sacrifices. Thus, you need a self-heal so that you can keep your army running regardless of how good or bad your monk is.

Um...maybe its just me, but why are you saccing 25% of your health every 6 seconds. Yeah, if I'm the monk and you are saccing that much, that often, you better bring a self-heal.

I run MM a lot, but I can't see myself saccing that often. Maybe when we're heading to the next mob, and I have no bodies, but I am constantly creating new minions. If you're so bent on keeping your first minions alive, then I think you are going to be saccing way more than you need to, to be able to keep those minions alive, as their health degeneration is just going to continue to grow, but if you're renewing your army with fresh minions, then you shouldn't be saccing as much right?

Other than that, great article. Most of these I've never considered, as I'm either running AotL or Heal Area.

Chthon · Sep 26, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

nice, but i would like to see the math on Masochism + mystic regen + AotL.... Ive been running AotL and mystic sense NF came out.

Bear in mind that AotL is the most efficient heal available. Simply recasting AotL more frequently will always get you more healing/energy than casting anything else.
Now, if you're already recasting AotL on the recharge, and you still want more, then AotL + Maso + Mystic Regen would support a max life of 1236.3 (limited by energy) (pre-AotL).
IMO, the gain is hardly worth paying the extra energy and skill slot to add mystic regen. Really, the only reason to ever bring another heal in addition to AotL is to deal with a sudden spike in monster damage that puts you in danger of dying before AotL's next heal comes through. Mystic regen can do that job, but you might want to consider something with a more spiky heal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilaptca

Um...maybe its just me, but why are you saccing 25% of your health every 6 seconds. Yeah, if I'm the monk and you are saccing that much, that often, you better bring a self-heal.

I run MM a lot, but I can't see myself saccing that often. Maybe when we're heading to the next mob, and I have no bodies, but I am constantly creating new minions. If you're so bent on keeping your first minions alive, then I think you are going to be saccing way more than you need to, to be able to keep those minions alive, as their health degeneration is just going to continue to grow, but if you're renewing your army with fresh minions, then you shouldn't be saccing as much right?

I did the math presuming max degen for 2 reasons:
First, if it's even possible to properly model minion age, it'd be waaaay too much of a headache.
Second, it's not unrealistic that you're going to have one - or several - max degen minions pretty often. A minion hits max degen after 3 minutes of unlife. Do you always get 10 bodies in 3 minutes? A lot of the time, you do. Heck, you can get 10 bodies in 10 seconds in Vizunah Sq. But a lot of the time you don't. Moreover, when the monsters take down a minion. there's no guarantee they'll take down the oldest one; so you can end up needing more than 10 bodies in 3 minutes to stay above max degen.
Underlying this is the (heretofore) unspoken assumption that a max degen minion is better than nothing. IMO, since they still do full damage, still draw aggro away from the party, and still soak damage for you, max degen minions are worth keeping alive, and worth designing your build so you are able to keep them alive.
All of that said, you're 100% correct that it's undesirable to have max degen minions. When you can, by all means, recycle your way to younger, healthier, more beautiful minions, cut back on BotM's frequency, cut back on your self-heal's frequency, and dedicate the saved energy to more minions and more damage/utility/support skills. Just build for the times when you can't.

Moloch Vein · Sep 27, 2007, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Been going over this some in my mind.

One important point to consider is that the discussion about supportable max HP is that it's largely academic in nature. As long as the build actually supports healing 10 minions without yourself dying you're fine, which we see is the case for at least some of the actually used options.

What is more important is that the way you suggest AoTL should be used, as your "primary self-heal", leaves you extremely open to spike damage, with only one heal coming every 20 seconds. Another point is that the AoTL heal is often more or less wasted, because you don't even have a maximum HP as high as the self-heal. This is a major point in favor of Mystic Regeneration or any form of pip-based healing, which keeps your health smooth at a high level while saccing.

Oh, and another thing:

Quote:

Simply recasting AotL more frequently will always get you more healing/energy than casting anything else.

It's probably worth noting that this is not the case if you're running an enchantment-reliant build. Assuming you are running two enchantments, such as Dark Bond and Masochism, or Dark Bond and Infuse Condition, Mystic Regeneration will heal you for more HP/E than AotL, it will heal you in a more efficient manner, and it will heal you faster. This might seem unimportant but it means that if you are running an AoTL-Maso-Mystic build it is _not_ energy-efficient to cast AotL on recharge - Mystic is _more_ energy-efficient.

elk · Sep 27, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

[skill]animate bone fiend[/skill] [skill]blood of the master[/skill] [skill]aura of the lich[/skill] [skill]infuse condition[/skill] [skill]dark bond[/skill] [skill]mystic regeneration[/skill] [skill]Masochism[/skill]

usually the last skill is a rez.

12 Death +4
11 SR +1
5 Blood +1
3 Earth Prayers

Since the intro of masochism, it's just made this build even more effective (which is just more validation of what the OP has been indicating). Works well in both PvE and AB.

elk

Chthon · Sep 27, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

What is more important is that the way you suggest AoTL should be used, as your "primary self-heal", leaves you extremely open to spike damage, with only one heal coming every 20 seconds.

This is true. Generally, I advise that MM's should be staying out of aggro so that life sac accounts for their only life loss. In situations where this isn't possible, one must either add a secondary heal to AotL to cover spikes, or think about using a different primary heal, like heal area or mystic regen.

Quote:

Another point is that the AoTL heal is often more or less wasted, because you don't even have a maximum HP as high as the self-heal.

This is true.

Quote:

This is a major point in favor of Mystic Regeneration or any form of pip-based healing, which keeps your health smooth at a high level while saccing.

This is true for Mystic Regen generally, but not true in the case of Mystic Regen + AotL. With AotL active, most of Mystic Regen's healing gets wasted too. In fact, most of just about any healing is going to get wasted. That's unavoidable with AotL.

Quote:

Oh, and another thing:
It's probably worth noting that this is not the case if you're running an enchantment-reliant build. Assuming you are running two enchantments, such as Dark Bond and Masochism, or Dark Bond and Infuse Condition, Mystic Regeneration will heal you for more HP/E than AotL, it will heal you in a more efficient manner, and it will heal you faster. This might seem unimportant but it means that if you are running an AoTL-Maso-Mystic build it is _not_ energy-efficient to cast AotL on recharge - Mystic is _more_ energy-efficient.

This is interesting.

I don't think it's quite accurate to say that mystic regen gives you 9 regen for 20 sec for 10e, divide 360 by 10 and peg its efficiency at 36hp/e. You also have to pay for the other two enchantments to proc it. The simplest approach is to pro-rate your other enchantments down to 20 sec and add their costs to Mystic Regen's 10e. That would give you 25.1hp/e for Dark Bond (@3) + Infuse Condition, 24.1hp/e for Maso + Infuse Condition, or 22.3hp/e for Maso + Dark Bond -- all of which are less than AotL's 25.3hp/e. Now, this isn't quite accurate either. Hopefully those enchants are going to deliver some beneficial effect in the next 20 sec, and, to the extent that they do, some of their cost should be attributed to providing that effect and some to proc-ing Mystic Regen.
So let me revise my former statement: To the extent that you are casting your other enchantments solely to proc Mystic Regen, recasting AotL more frequently is more energy efficient; to the extent that you would be using those enchantments anyway for the benefits they give, casting Mystic Regen more frequently is more efficient.
I think there's a strong case for maintaining Maso 24-7 just on its own merits. That would make Recasting Mystic Regen the wiser course in such a build. I'm not so sure about Dark Bond or Infuse Condition... I find that I can easily go 20 sec without getting hit or conditioned in most PvE situations.

Thanks for forcing me to think.

Moloch Vein · Sep 27, 2007, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Wouldn't the easiest way to rate it be to:

Since Masochism costs 5e*2/3=3.33, and BoTM is used about 3 times in 20 seconds thus netting 9 energy from it (after all, we're talking about keeping the minions alive), this enchantment shouldn't be taken into account. After all, we believe it is beneficial enough to be kept up at all times, or close to all times - regardless of whether you're using AoTL or not.

So, the AoTL user is using AoTL and Masochism as enchantments, while the MR user is using either Dark Bond or Infuse Condition, plus Masochism and Mystic Regeneration.

Thus we're left at either Dark Bond or Infuse Condition as the extra energy expended, where we find:

Dark Bond costs 20/34*5=2.94e per 20 seconds (BM2)
Infuse Condition costs 20/63*5=1.59e per 20 seconds (DM16)

Thus if we completely disregard the beneficial effect of the enchantments we get 360 points of healing for either 360/12.94=27.8hp/e or 360/11.59=31.1hp/e

Now, of course, this isn't all the story. If using AoTL you'll heal for twice as many sacrifices as without it. That's the real eye-catcher. Here we only discuss healing, not the fact that the healing will be twice as effective.

Uh, I got a lil confused trying to work that thing out.

Chthon · Sep 27, 2007, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Wouldn't the easiest way to rate it be to:

Since Masochism costs 5e*2/3=3.33, and BoTM is used about 3 times in 20 seconds thus netting 9 energy from it (after all, we're talking about keeping the minions alive), this enchantment shouldn't be taken into account. After all, we believe it is beneficial enough to be kept up at all times, or close to all times - regardless of whether you're using AoTL or not.

So, the AoTL user is using AoTL and Masochism as enchantments, while the MR user is using either Dark Bond or Infuse Condition, plus Masochism and Mystic Regeneration.

Thus we're left at either Dark Bond or Infuse Condition as the extra energy expended, where we find:

Dark Bond costs 20/34*5=2.94e per 20 seconds (BM2)
Infuse Condition costs 20/63*5=1.59e per 20 seconds (DM16)

Thus if we completely disregard the beneficial effect of the enchantments we get 360 points of healing for either 360/12.94=27.8hp/e or 360/11.59=31.1hp/e

Now, of course, this isn't all the story. If using AoTL you'll heal for twice as many sacrifices as without it. That's the real eye-catcher. Here we only discuss healing, not the fact that the healing will be twice as effective.

Correct?

That sounds right.

If you're going to be keeping maso up all the time anyway, mystic regen becomes more energy efficient than AotL. Though we should perhaps bear in mind that energy isn't the limiting factor for either skill -- AotL is limited by recycle speed and MR is limited by the speed of regen -- so deciding between these two (if not using both) need not necessarily come down to energy efficiency.

I realize, belately, that we have been talking about slightly different things. You've been comparing MR + Maso + X to AotL + Maso + X, while I've been comparing MR + AotL + X with a max AotL cast frequency to MR + AotL + X with a max MR cast frequency.

<(Oops.) Though, ultimately, I don't think it makes much difference; most of your points seem applicable to either comparison.

Moloch Vein · Sep 27, 2007, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Actually I was comparing both, which is what caused my confusion

Moloch Vein · Sep 28, 2007, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by elk

[skill]animate bone fiend[/skill] [skill]blood of the master[/skill] [skill]aura of the lich[/skill] [skill]infuse condition[/skill] [skill]dark bond[/skill] [skill]mystic regeneration[/skill] [skill]Masochism[/skill]

usually the last skill is a rez.

12 Death +4
11 SR +1
5 Blood +1
3 Earth Prayers

Since the intro of masochism, it's just made this build even more effective (which is just more validation of what the OP has been indicating). Works well in both PvE and AB.

elk

I understand your idea about switching EP down to 3 because you have 5 enchantments, however, 8 EP still isn't a huge sacrifice, and it will improve the resiliency of the build since all enchants need not be active at all times to gain max regen.

Chthon · Nov 21, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Updated OP with new healing breeze.

AuraofMana · Nov 24, 2007, 11:30 PM // 23:30

As a Mystic-AOTL-Maso, I find myself recasting all the enchantments before they even expire half way because simply: As a MM, I have nothing else better to do.
Other than raising new minions on almost all corpses, an AOTL build doesn't require a lot of attention. I just sit in the backline and spam BOTM, sometimes just every time BOTM is recharged in combat. This is due to:
1. With all 3 enchant, I am losing 18 or so health every sac, which regens back by the time BOTM recharges.
2. With Maso, I am gaining back 4 energy (SR at 13), and e regens back before recharge.
3. In later parts of the game or HM, spamming BOTM to keep minions alive is almost essential.

I don't bother wanding monsters, since it doesn't do anything to minions attack (as far as I know). I don't even have a wand, I just threw in a Voltaic Spear with +5e, 10/10 Furious, and 20% Enchantment (furious is for OOU + GFTE). I've never considered AOTL as a self-heal mostly because Mystic Regen, although mathematically not as efficient as AOTL, takes less attention. I just sit there and play the game with my left hand.

MMing is getting boring to me because there isn't a great change from NF -> GWEN other than maso. Other people want to bring some PVE skills in, which can be amazing (for example, Ebon...Honor on OOU), but not so much on the AOTL build. I personally like the OOU build more, but quite frankly, without another MM to tank in the front, bone fiends get ripped (again, later level of the game and/or HM). I think I've been spoiled by AOTL and find myself too lazy to play OOU due to the constant input required from my part (and the part where I am not fond of Heal Area). I find myself playing Mystic Regen on OOU with Infused + Maso because I am lazy. I've always wanted to play OOU in harder areas, but most people just look for a MM to bring in minions to tank. Quite frankly, I agree that OOU doesn't do that well. Sure, it rips monsters a new one with everything, but it's quite hard to keep 10 minions alive without AOTL in HM.

Plus, Jagged Bones + Death Nova + Bone Minions on a Hero is far more superior than a human MM with AOTL. People can't play Jagged as efficient as a hero. They can always try, but uh, most people just rather have a Hero MM and let the human nec go SS or something. I've been trying to find an efficient MM build to blast through HM as a damager, but so far I've been unsuccessful.

Carinae · Nov 25, 2007, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

I don't bother wanding monsters, since it doesn't do anything to minions attack (as far as I know). I don't even have a wand, I just threw in a Voltaic Spear with +5e, 10/10 Furious, and 20% Enchantment

It doesn't have to be a wand, but minions follow your attacks if they are not already aggroed, so keep attacking your priority target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

but it's quite hard to keep 10 minions alive without AOTL in HM.

It's harder, but not a lot harder. I have Legendary Guardian and am halfway through Vanquishing as an OOU/HA MM. I usually have 10 minions, although it can drop to 4-5 after a tough fight.

Stay in the back, keep your defenses up, grind BotM continuously. Tap OOU for an extra punch, but plan your punches:

Versus Jade Knights, I fire OOU right as the minions engage, to soften the targets before they even begin dealing damage back. Don't use it otherwise, unless you see the minions all on a target that you want dead NOW. Only use OOU if your energy reserves are nearly full. Consecutive uses of OOU will drain your energy and you won't be able to animate after the battle, although it's a fun way to kill the final mob/boss in a zone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

Plus, Jagged Bones + Death Nova + Bone Minions on a Hero is far more superior than a human MM with AOTL. People can't play Jagged as efficient as a hero.

A human MM with OOU runs rings around a hero MM with JB/DN. But you're right that heroes run JB/DN better than people, and run it effectively.

Monk of Myrodin · Nov 26, 2007, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraofMana

Plus, Jagged Bones + Death Nova + Bone Minions on a Hero is far more superior than a human MM with AOTL.

The main thing I have to point out is that the JB+DN+BM is not a true MM build, It is a Minion Bomber build which is a totally different idea. With the Minion Bomber you want the minions to die because of the damage/degen they cause, while with the normal Minion Master you want to keep all your minions alive as long as possible except while summoning replacements.